Curse

cristidam · Apr 15, 2005, 06:35 AM // 06:35

whew, i finnaly read all the 10 pages of posts from this thread. it's time to put 2 of my cents here:

i have another (i think strong) argument in favor of level cap 20. let's take for example Lineage 2. i played this game from beta till chronicle 1. and then i got bored of leveling. i want to draw your attention to something else tho' and that is botting. i have read on a lineage 2 forum a complaint against botters (people who use 3rd party programs that move the character and make it level and whatnot) and how they couldnt stand it no longer and will quit. my thought is that level cap 20 will prevent this from happening. this level cap will also be kind of a sorter of bad seeds from the crop as less and less "noobs" will come and more sophisticated and friendly people will take their place (i dont know why but all this kill.kill.kill-level.level.level kinda makes people grumpy and "upsetilish", see causes for ks-ing and pk-ing) .

on another point ill take as example Anarchy Online, but any other "leveling-like-hell" mmorpg could take its place. so, in AO the level cap is 220. but u cannot reach it unless u spend maybe half a year playing hard. i played this game for about a year and a half but never reached 220 (highest was 160). the reason i leveled was not for the sake to level, but so i could be able to explore those areas that were unreacheable for my level (e.g. u need level lvl 200 to enter inferno area). of course i got bored of leveling. what i'm trying to say is that i am an explorer. i spend 3/4ths of my time exploring new zones, doing quests and socializing. so this change that guild wars brings is very welcome and i look forward to finish downloading the client, the BWE to start and aaaaaaa......

cant wait....

p.s. sorry for the last part. im just really anxious to take a sip from the cup full of FUN

Talsar · Apr 17, 2005, 01:47 PM // 13:47

I think evolution in a game means more than leveling.

leveling is a way to evolve a character.

but so is expanding the list of skills a character can chose combo's from.

In order to remain captivating to players, some sort of evolution is needed.
If the expansionpacks to Guildwars provide sufficient new gameplay options,
the levelcap of 20 is entirely irrelevant.

I wonder why there are any levels at all in Guildwars. The game is obviously about strategies and tactics; the game design allows for levels, and i highly doubt they added it in "just to look like other mmorpgs".

I think the answer to the "why there are levels at all" should provide a good clue about to the effects of changing a levelcap.

So pls, anyone who knows ?

Loviatar · Apr 17, 2005, 03:51 PM // 15:51

it is a way to help judge if you should attack that level 9 monster when you are level 3 for one example

oops maybe i should come back later with reinforcements maybe

Talsar · Apr 17, 2005, 04:01 PM // 16:01

in that case, would it not be easier to make a "color code" system of say

grey = easy
green = ok
yellow = hard
red = too hard
purple = run while you can

easier then a leveling system, if this was the only argument. Besides, by the very argument in favor of the level cap, namely the game being about tactics instead of levels, a level as indication of a creature's power is flawed: a creature with level 1 and a superb combo of skills would be harder to defeat then a creature level 20 with a poor mismatch of skills.

So, while i thank you for your input, i doubt this is a really satisfying answer.

Loviatar · Apr 17, 2005, 04:26 PM // 16:26

true

as stated above by the developers the level cap is essentially meaningless

perhaps to give some sense of progress

we are having people with trouble with only a 20 cap

imagine no levels at all and just saying play for 30-50 hours and you are as high as you can get and most people would hear play 30-50 hours and you have beaten the game

maybe Gaile will give us another reason

Makarei · Apr 17, 2005, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Pvp, are limited to 20 levels.

RollP, are have no limit on levels. so they just keep on leveling up. I really hate games with caps.. kinda makes you feel restricted to basic mode. plus i maxed to level 20 in just 2 beta weekends. not much challege is it. I maxed out and getting bored. So i started new character, but he maxed out. Again getting bored..

pfft throw guildwars on shelf to collect dust. now what to do..

Weezer_Blue · Apr 18, 2005, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Guild Wars is kept challenging, fair, and virtually grind-free by limiting the level cap to 20 and allowing you to reach "ascension" within a reletively short amount of time.
It keeps the game challenging by making it so that you can never just run up to a mission (or, most of them... at least past Lions Arch) and just one-hit kill every creature that exists. If you could level to 60, then how would fighting level 28's be challenging in the slightest? And if they wanted to raise the level of all the monsters, wouldn't it just be easier and more beneficial to just leave it where it is right now?
It keeps the game fair by creating a level playing field. In guild wars, you will never get slaughtered by someone just because they are twice your level. If you die, it's because you're opponent was better - or they worked in a team better.
And finally, it eliminates most of the grind by getting rid of the need to replay a mission 6 times just so you can level up to use the next "über" item. You hardly think about leveling in Guild Wars.

One of the main concerns people have about the level cap is it's effect on the length of the game. Since when is the law written in stone that says "content must be directly linked to levels!" Guild Wars has more to do than many crappy RPGs out there the content is just not tied to levels allowing you to move along based on your skill and luck in finding a competant party. In no way does it restrict the content in the game - it, however, might make it so that you get through it faster. But that's unlikely as well because there's just so much to do.

Brungo · Apr 19, 2005, 03:00 AM // 03:00

Hate to bring up an old thread. After reading the thread in regards to capping the level to 20, I really didn't think too much about it. However, sitting down and pondering left me thinking I will want more. Maybe it's the EQ in me. But what if we capped the level at 20, but were still able to aquire XP? Just let it keep adding up. It gives us a since of accomplishment. Heck, after so long, maybe even trade it in for something...whatever it may be. Just an idea.

Lord Vice · Apr 19, 2005, 04:30 AM // 04:30

This game is simply amazing. The beta weekend event was awesome! I have never seen such a polished game at this stage prior to release. And not to mention, NO SUBSCRIPTIONS!! OMG..

The cap thing; does it really matter what level you are. Whats the difference between a level 50 guy, and a level 150 guy. The bottom line is that game allows you to explore and enjoy friends regardless of level. SWG tryed to develop a non-level based system and failed. GW is doing it right.

The instance missions in this game are tops!

Anyways, I'm hooked, I hope you are. This is the game I've always wanted to play and never could until now!

Cheers!

Digital_messiah · Apr 19, 2005, 04:50 AM // 04:50

I like the lvl 20 cap i mean first off have u looked at the world map? its frickin huge! i got to lvl 11 and just arrived at the ice mountains in one BWE theres tons more to do plenty of items to find monsters to kill and besides it will be a lot easier to star a new character if u dont like the one uve made

Listen to tool

SSE4 · Apr 19, 2005, 06:02 AM // 06:02

I'm indifferent. Whether or not they raise the level cap isn't a concern to me. Although I would like to see it increase over time, I don't even care enough to argue about it. I'll enjoy it either way.

Zeppelin · Apr 19, 2005, 06:20 AM // 06:20

At first, I was a bit skeptical about the lvl 20 cap. It seemed like a good idea on one hand, being that I quit EQ with 4 chars at lvls 10-20 out of sheer hatred/boredom of the slooooow leveling process. On the other hand, I'm a huge RPG fan, and get a sense of accompolishment from leveling a character to lvl 99,100, or whatever the max is, and 20 seems extremely low. However, 200-300 hours of leveling is very hard to justify, especially when you're being charged per month to do so.

Then I started to come around. You see, GW removes all that nonsense waste of time leveling up. Rather then spending your precious time grinding for days/weeks/months/years, you can actually get on to the more enjoyable parts of the game such as exploring, doing tougher quests, meeting new people, finding new items, you know - the actual game. Camping near some uber experience mobs for days isn't my idea of a good time.

The important thing, is that there is some sort of progression/sense of accompolishment. You don't need leveling in order to progress in this game, which is a very good thing. We get to go almost immediately to the real substance of the game, rather than being stuck leveling up forever when we could be having more fun actually experiencing different challenges in the game, or even spend some IRL time.

If you want to level forever this isn't your game. I hope that they don't end up turning this game into that, because then, it will no longer be my game either.

βlitzkrieg · Apr 19, 2005, 06:40 AM // 06:40

I'd still like to see harder areas unlocked and possible to accomplish with higher levels. 20 seems rather low, even if it was 50?

Zeppelin · Apr 19, 2005, 06:50 AM // 06:50

50 is a number, just the same as 20. The only difference, is you are forced into leveling up for hours to get to where you want to go. Right now, skill determines how far you can get.

Why would leveling up for hours make this game any more enjoyable? It's a waste of time, especially if you can get to the same areas at a lower level. Sure, leveling up would make you "stronger", but the game would then just make enemies stronger to compensate for that.

They can still make the game fun and challenging and have 20 the max level. Level should have nothing to do with how much you enjoy the game. The content is what matters.

AGTyson2Tone · Apr 19, 2005, 12:25 PM // 12:25

I do not understand why on earth so much people are whining about this lvl 20 cap. This is really the first game in which the journey (playing, questing, even item searching ...) is a lot more fun than the destination, being lvl 20.
Too much people do not understand (in my opinion that is) that this game was not designed just to get to a certain lelvel, but to have a Role Playing experience, about fun while venturing into wastelands and battling the foes.

Please don't let the level of a character destroy her/his opportunities: It has been said before, but I will gladly repeat that this way favours skill in stead of potential playing time.

Manderlock · Apr 19, 2005, 12:37 PM // 12:37

MMO-grind=GW

MMO=the usual rable
grind=ZZZZZZZ
GW=OMFG i made poo in pants

Xellos · Apr 19, 2005, 01:05 PM // 13:05

I just hope the new areas and such as they add on are like Underworld and Fissure in terms of rewards, new stuff, but nothing game-breaking. Even the new bows had nothing over half-moon/short bow in terms of kill power, though eternal was pretty well rounded. I actually hate bows like Shadow Bow or Horn Bow, they have no real use other then their insane straight trajectory, which no one cares about if your fire rate is like, 2.7; whoopy do.

Auh · Apr 19, 2005, 01:17 PM // 13:17

Everyone who complains about the level cap need to understand this. Without that level cap, GuildWars cannot accomplish it's goals. Without it the game would require grind time, You could not compete nearly as well in arenas and guild wars, And a lot of the game would just be leveling up, Which would completely destroy GuildWar's purpose. Trust me, The level cap is a good thing to have. Anyways, it doesn't get easier as you progress into the game.

Sin · Apr 19, 2005, 01:54 PM // 13:54

It appears that a large number of people seem to find GuildWars appealing for it's differences, yet, do not take into consideration how those differences shape the entire game. Any one difference isn't a pigeon holed and separated attribute, such as the level 20 cap does not stand by itself. I know it's hard to believe after playing the run-of-the-mill rpgs that follow the traditional grind thinking so that two players can battle each other for 3 hours without dieing only to have one teleport away and both look for that other uber item they must have missed, but the game mechanics in GuildWars are actually interrelated. This means: If you came to GuildWars for it's differences, then you came to enjoy all the interrelated components that give effect to that difference. This is why wuggested changes to the level cap, for instance, are to suggest changes to the entire game, changes that are detrimental to why you the suggestor are attracted to this game. In other words, If you came for the differences now respect them and quit trying to make this game like the rest that you are not playing as often for the exact reason: "They are all the same. I am bored with them." (i.e. The grind.) and/or "Everyone has the same uber demigod life leaching invulnerability sword from hell that I have--It's not fair!" Really? So it was fair when one person had the uber demigod life leaching invulnerability sword from hell alone? Interesting sense of "balance" we get taught by these other games.

One of my favorite pieces of simultaneous contempt and humour is reading the suggestion thread. So many want to talk about level or this or that exploitable advantage apparenly not realizing these "advantages" are entirely time played reward reasoned (old school of grind). This is however while yet they want there to be more new skills at the skill trainers and there should be more skill trainers to find skills easier, more "spread out."

So this means: Have a time played reward (grind) that is accomodated by mapping more skill trainers with less repetitive skill selection but "newer ones" (a skill grind). It appears they want RuneScape and probably do play that too--complaining to the developer that "RuneScape graphics is not as good as GuildWars and it's only in beta!" I mean aren't we all just hoping Arena.net implement a skill grind so we can say "GuildWars? Oh that's just another mmorpg. I got bored doing the blah blah mission to get this blah blah skill that I have to have to PVP." One could easily replace the first blah blah mission with "kill the level 60 dragon on Crandor" and the second blah blah skill with "rune platemail." Don't forget you almost definitely die without the "anti-dragon shield." Oh joy! The days of single item dependency remembered.

With GuildWars the grind becomes another piece of history, a nostalgic relic in computer gaming to be discussed on the History Channel's "electronic age" segment.

Personally I find only one use for grinders--coffee beans!

SSE4 · Apr 20, 2005, 06:10 AM // 06:10

There's a lot more to the different systems than just grinding. That's simply how current games use it.